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Subject: Paladin Respec
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seeker User is Offline
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 3221
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....

01/29/2008 2:02 PM  
I'm a believer that Ret Pally's can push DPS. I saw Trefalgarr go down in an arena to one last night -- at silly speeds.

Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

01/29/2008 2:12 PM  
Posted By seeker on 01/29/2008 2:02 PM
I'm a believer that Ret Pally's can push DPS. I saw Trefalgarr go down in an arena to one last night -- at silly speeds.


For sure!

That paladin was freaking scary.  He was hard to kill too.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
Ratsback1 User is Offline
Guild Initiate
Squire


Total Posts: 36
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

01/30/2008 12:09 PM  
I like big damage... but I hate wiping. Makes for a bad mix :P

After I get the epic quest for my bling horse taken care of (with XXX gold here and XXX gold there), I may try a Ret re-specc.


Alderman - Lv 70 Dwarven Paladin (Protection - Survivadin... Tankish) - Main
Xalaman - Lv 30 Human Warlock (Affliction) - Alt
Obellix - Lv 31 Dark Elf Rogue (Assassination) - Alt
Amberlynne - Lv 16 Human Warrior - Alt

(HELP I'm an Alt-aholic!!!!)
seeker User is Offline
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 3221
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....

01/30/2008 4:34 PM  
If someone in the group lives, it wasn't a wipe!

(if every time sceptre died was considered a wipe.... woah)

Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

01/31/2008 9:31 AM  

Research Update:

 

I tried the 45 Holy / 16 Ret spec I listed above.  It actually ended up being 39/16 since my toon is only lvl 64.

 

I went out to Zangramarsh to test it.

 

I put on all the +Str warrior-style plate I had, and with my improved Blessing of Might, I got up to about 1,000 AP.  I was using the Hellreaver from Ramparts (slow 68.8 DPS polearm with +Str and +Melee Crit)

 

The bottom line – I just wasn’t satisfied at all with the talent template.  I’m sure healing dungeons would be fine, but questing DPS was lackluster.  It wasn’t much better than being protection, and I gave up all the damage mitigation.

 

I tried Seal of Command with Judged Crusader on the mobs.  Command just doesn’t proc enough IMO.  It’s ok when it does.  When you get a crit, it’s fantastic.  Without the talents really deep in the Ret tree, it just wasn’t crit-ing enough.  I seemed to proc normally about 1 in 4 or 5 swings.  Command would do about 385 dmg on a normal proc.

 

I then tried Seal of Blood.  That was better than Seal of Command.  It would proc for 185 dmg and only do 18 points back to me.  The proc amount was lower, BUT it went off every single swing.  It easily added up to more damage.  4x185=740 is much better than 1x385=385.  The judgments on Seal of Blood and non-stunned Seal of Command were about equal.

 

It boils down to a fundamental incompatibility between Holy and Retribution.  Holy has talents to help spell crits, and it also has deeper talents to help spell damage.  The Holy tree strongly implies getting +Spell Damage and lots of +Int (because 35% is converted to Spell Damage in addition to increased spell crit).

 

Seal of Command and Blood seem to imply lots of Strength and Melee Crit.  They are based on weapon damage.

 

So what seemed to happen was that Holy talents were gimping my Retribution damage, and Retribution gear was gimping my Holy damage (and healing during down time between fights).  I was constantly running out of mana.

 

I tried using Seal of Righteousness with the big 2-hander, and I found that it was doing more damage per swing than Seal of Blood.  The judgement was also a little bigger, and it didn’t feedback 33% of the damage to me.  Seal of Righteousness was doing like 240 points per swing and 520 point judgments.  It was better than Blood and more dependable than Command.

 

Sooo… I went back to the drawing board.

 

I respected again.  This time dumping the idea of Retribution gear and talents.  I picked up Improved Seal of Righteousness (adding +15% damage to that seal) and every other Holy talent I wanted.  I put 47 points into Holy, and put the remaining 8 points available into Protection for Improved Devotion Aura and Precision (which also affects spell hit).

 

I changed into my best +Int and +Spell Damage gear.  I went to the AH and bought a green 2-hand sword with +Int and +28 Spell Damage (70.2 DPS I think, slow 3.6 speed).

 

That synergy of talents and gear made a dramatic difference.

 

I ran Devotion Aura to mitigate some incoming damage.  I ran Blessing of Wisdom to regen mana while fighting.  I judged Crusader on mobs to debuff them, then ran with Seal of Righteousness as my weapon buff.

 

I was doing 400 point normal procs with Seal of Righteousness every swing.  In addition, my Holy Shocks went up a lot too.  I was getting 700 point or so Holy Shocks that would crit for about 1,000 sometimes.  If I used Divine Favor to guarantee a crit, and used my Vengeance of the Illidari trinket for a Spell Dmg boost, my Holy Shock was almost 1,200 points.

 

The nice thing though, with Improved Blessing of Wisdom running and more mana efficiency, I wasn’t seeing as much down time.  My heals in between fights were also better.

 

I’m not saying this is better than a pure Retribution template for pure questing, but it was tolerable.  It made for quicker single-mob kills than Protection.

 

So basically, I ended up with a toned-down Shockadin build.  I’m not going for Sanctity Aura in Retribution, which is the true cookie-cutter Shockadin build.  This is still pretty workable it seems for leveling.

 

I might yank the 8 points from Protection and put them into Retribution.  That would only be for the purpose of getting Improved Seal of the Crusader and Improved Judgment.  I would not go any deeper there.


-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
seeker User is Offline
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 3221
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....

01/31/2008 3:46 PM  
/watches tref go broke. ;)

Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53
Ratsback1 User is Offline
Guild Initiate
Squire


Total Posts: 36
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

01/31/2008 4:43 PM  
HEHE... poor Tref!

What's money if it's not being used for something!?!

Alderman - Lv 70 Dwarven Paladin (Protection - Survivadin... Tankish) - Main
Xalaman - Lv 30 Human Warlock (Affliction) - Alt
Obellix - Lv 31 Dark Elf Rogue (Assassination) - Alt
Amberlynne - Lv 16 Human Warrior - Alt

(HELP I'm an Alt-aholic!!!!)
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

01/31/2008 4:51 PM  
I have 4 Season 2 arena weapons all with Mongoose enchants on them (on my rogue). Plus the temporary off-hand mace i was using for several weeks with a Mongoose enchant.

That's 400g+ in mats for each -- half the money for an epic flying mount right there just in stinking enchantments.

Enchants, gems and talent respecs, no wonder my flights take so long and I never have more than a couple hundred gold...

Oh well. I have fun.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
Galza User is Offline
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Total Posts: 232
Location:

02/02/2008 8:34 PM  
So I've been wondering.. I came across a youtube video about "shockadins" and I'm really curious about trying it out.. because I wouldn't be giving up holy spec in favor of atcually laying down the hurt. Basically it looks like a Holy build with a lot of spell crit and damage/healing stats.

The only thing is, I dunno how useful Id be in raid situations with gear more centered around Holy DPS.. is there actually a use for such a paladin outside of PVP anyway?

Photobucket

The ones who matter..

Galza - 70 Holy Pally
Ramlus - 44 Destruction Warlock
Blizbo - 29 Survival Hunter
Tygrey - 28 Arcane Mage
Delexi - 31 Enhancement Shaman
Ilkatur - 11 Arms Warrior
Gilvain - 26 Rogue
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/04/2008 10:38 AM  
The "Cookie Cutter" Shockadin build has some permutation of 40Holy + 21Retribution.  The two deep, key talents are Holy Guidance (which converts your +int into +spell dmg) and Sanctity Aura with Crusade (for pumping up Holy damage +13% in pvp).

Here is a sample build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVyh0xzheoxZVf0xMcz

The talent template above that I am trying (47Holy+14Ret) is sort of a gimped version that is really more of a Healadin build.

Shockadins are ALSO very good healers.  You will want to swap gear though.  Healing with one set having max +heal and spell crit.  The other with max spell damage and spell crit (Intellect helps too through Holy Guidance).

Scary burst damage happens like this:

1.  Santity Aura active
2.  Seal of Crusader, Judge Crusader on Target
3.  Seal of Righteousness and start swinging away with big 2-hander.
4.  Activate DMG trinkets (if you have them)
5.  Divine Favor for 100% spell crit.
6.  HOLY SHOCK [boom!]
7.  Judge Righteousness when cooldown is up (should be a couple seconds after holy shock)

This can pump out several thousand points of damage in a small amount of time.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
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