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Subject: Respec Addict -- Shadowstep
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Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
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Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/21/2008 10:21 AM  

For the past couple weeks, I've been running around with a Shadowstep build.  I was very cautious about ever returning to this type of rogue build based on my past experiences from a long time ago.

For PvP (with decent gear), IT ROCKS!
The recent buffs to this talent tree are significant and make it probably "the" premier FOTM rogue PvP-style build -- replacing the nerfed HARP build.
[HARP = Hemo, Adrenaline Rush, Preparation]

I thought I would never be able to give up mace stun procs from Mace Specialization, but the burst damage and utility talents up to Shadowstep makes up for it.  With 1450 AP and a 30%+ crit rate in PvP GEAR (not raid gear), my Hemos are hitting like a truck and crit constantly.

Cheat Death is scary good too.

Current Rogue Talents: Shadowstep Build (non-daggers)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxZZxMe0MGRsxst

Assassination (17 points)
    3/3 Improved Eviscerate
    5/5 Malice
    3/3 Ruthlessness
    1/1 Relentless Strikes
    5/5 Lethality
Subtlety (44 points)
    5/5 Master of Deception
    2/2 Dirty Tricks
    5/5 Camouflage
    3/3 Initiative
    2/2 Elusiveness
    3/3 Serrated Blades
    2/2 Heightened Senses
    1/1 Preparation
    2/2 Dirty Deeds
    1/1 Hemorrhage
    3/3 Master of Subtlety
    5/5 Deadliness
    1/1 Premeditation
    3/3 Cheat Death
    5/5 Sinister Calling
    1/1 Shadowstep

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/21/2008 10:29 AM  
Now the bad news...

PvP was the hotsauce!  but my PVE raiding DPS dropped bad.

Full Combat Maces (20 Assasination / 41 Combat), my DPS on Gruul was at 650 to 700+ DPS.

Post-change to Assasination Shadowstep, it dropped down to 500 DPS on endgame content.  I lived much much longer on Gruul fights, but with all I could do my dps dropped a good 100 to 150 points.  I suppose 500 DPS is still considered passable, but that is really the bare minimum the SLACK Kitts are looking for on Gruul/SSC.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/21/2008 10:40 AM  
Time to spend more money! :-)
I'll report back after a week or two and tell you how this template worked for me.

I'm picking up the Duel-Wield level in combat.  That will certainly boost my sustained DPS (all-important in raiding).  The questions is ... how much will that nerf my burst damage in PVP?

Losing Improved Eviscerate is unimportant.  Eviscerate is a joke these days in PvP.  My Hemo crits (+1 Combo point) do more damage usually than 5-point Eviscerates (-5 Combo points).

Losing Malice is probably ok.  I can supplement with Gems and my Skyguard Exalted Trinket.  Lethality will be the biggest loss -- that gave a 30% boost to critical damage.  I'm hoping sustained damage from Duel Wield makes up for that in a short enough period of time in PvP.

I pickup Duel Wield, which is a HUGE PvE sustained DPS boost:  +50% damage to Off-hand weapon.  Normal melee attacks are generally 55% of total rogue damage in Pve.  Improved SliceNDice is also very nice for combo point and energy management.

Precision is also very nice.  It equals a LOT of +Hit.  I noticed the loss of this immediately when i changed to Shadowstep.  I was even missing players a noticeable amount in PvP, so I actually swapped out some gems in my gear for +hit.  With Precision, I can change back and recover some AGI or Crit.

I also missed Improved Sprint.  That extra CC escape is handy.  I wish I could grab Improved Kick somehow.  I guess you can't get everything :-(.

DW Combat Shadowstep
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fZhfV0bVZxMe0MGRoxst
Combat (20 points)
3/3 Improved Gouge
2/5 Lightning Reflexes
3/3 Improved Slice and Dice
5/5 Precision
2/2 Improved Sprint
5/5 Dual Wield Specialization
Subtlety (41 points)
5/5 Master of Deception
2/2 Dirty Tricks
5/5 Camouflage
3/3 Initiative
2/2 Elusiveness
3/3 Serrated Blades
2/2 Heightened Senses
1/1 Preparation
2/2 Dirty Deeds
1/1 Hemorrhage
5/5 Deadliness
1/1 Premeditation
3/3 Cheat Death
5/5 Sinister Calling
1/1 Shadowstep




-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
jeidynzon User is Offline
Ninja Star Zealot
Guild Officer
Prophet


Total Posts: 936
Location: Southern California

02/22/2008 6:46 AM  
Shadowstep is very helpful in raids now that Bliz put so many mobs out that can see through stealth. Shadowstep and sap. You aggro the mobs but you got your cc off. Teeny is a wild one ya know...

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wscott81 User is Offline
Sill Pixel Challenged
Guild Member
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Total Posts: 665
Location: Columbus Ohio

02/22/2008 9:11 AM  
it's worked well for me, I haven't Used it in For Raiding Specs Tref I suggest what i use if you wanna do some Fairly Large DPSPVP much thou, So i can't say on the ways of waters there. But it's a fun Build, Granted I use it on the PTR As well and in MT there is a Shamen that will Purge your Stealth, Kinda annoying actually, But anyway yes the Burst is awesome :)  you can Keep above a or right on track with a marksman hunter :)  Here is my Build on wow's stuff :) I don't use the SnD all that often Cause i am already slinging my Blades Quick with the normal Energy Regen. But it's a fun build :)

Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/22/2008 2:09 PM  
Beerboot,

I like your combat tree. It's a riposte-flavored PvP version. Not a bad idea at all. You still pull off 4 points in Duel-Wield. I'll have to think about that.

Your Sub tree looks dagger-oriented, unless maybe you are weapon swapping on your opening move from stealth?

Problems where I disagree. You took Hemo *and* Improved Sinister Strike. I think I need to go one way or the other. Hemo is terrible with daggers (damage range is too low on fast weapons).

You only put 2 of the 3 points in Cheat Death. That talent needs to be 100% IMO or not at all.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
seeker User is Offline
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 3221
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....

02/22/2008 4:48 PM  
Posted By Trefalgar on 02/22/2008 2:09 PM

....
You took Hemo *and* Improved Sinister Strike. I think I need to go one way or the other. Hemo is terrible with daggers (damage range is too low on fast weapons).
....


Tref;

I'm just not rogue-ish enough, so I'll ask this.

Using Hemo is a replacement for Sinister Strike? I'll agree w/ you: daggers aren't best.

Using Hemo for its proc (+X dmg per hit) turns it into a weapon buff which I think works pretty well on daggers -- they'll tend to use up all the charges before the timer runs out.

What am I missing?  Is it energy considerations?

Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
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wscott81 User is Offline
Sill Pixel Challenged
Guild Member
Prophet


Total Posts: 665
Location: Columbus Ohio

02/23/2008 8:46 AM  
Actually I put points into Improved SS cause i was using that Till i coiuld get to Hemo, I just haven't Respeced lol And been to lazy too lol
And My Hemo's can range between a measly 100- up to 1000 is the highest using daggers they are Usually depending on the Mob around 4-600 but still i kill Mobs Quickly :)

Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/25/2008 10:28 AM  

Why Sinister Strike is a more damaging Combo Point generator for fast weapons than Hemorrhage.

 

Many patches ago, Blizz came up with the concept of “Normalized Damage."  I seem to recall it made itemization more diverse or something like that.  One of the problems they had was some super slow weapons that were blue quality were sometimes more powerful than faster purple/epic weapons (i.e. 2.0 spd Barman Shanker from Blackrock Depths).

 

Anyway, Sinister Strike is a rogue attack that uses Normalized Damage.  Hemorrhage was not “normalized.”  So they have slightly different damage mechanics.

 

The Old Non-Normalized Formula – Still applies to Hemo and Ghostly Strike

Damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14)

 

For Attacks that are “Normalized”

Dagger Base Multiplier = 1.7 regardless of speed

Swords, Maces and Fists = 2.4 regardless of speed

 

The Normalized Formula:

Normalized Damage = Base Weapon Damage + (Base Multiplier × Attack Power / 14)

 

Here is an example.

 

Merciless Gladiator Shanker (Main Hand Season 2 Dagger)

140-211 Damage, 97.5 DPS, 1.8 Speed.  AVG HIT = 176

 

Assume 1300 Attack Power

 

Hemorrage: 176 + (1.8 x 1300 / 14) = 343 damage.  Hemo is 110% x 343 = 377 Total

 

Sinister Strike: 176 + (1.7 x 1300 / 14) = 334 damage.  SS is 98 + 334 = 432 Total

 

1.8 speed is about the slowest dagger you will have in Outlands.  Illidan drops a 1.9 speed dagger.  That’s it for lvl 70 endgame daggers slower than 1.8 speed J.

 

The faster the dagger, the more Sinister Strike outpaces Hemorrhage.  Sinister Strikes fixed damage bonus of +98 also outpaces Hemorrhage’s 110% modifier on fast weapons due to their lower damage range.

 

Maces and Swords just get better and better for Hemorrhage.  Many are slower than 2.4 (their normalized speed modifier).  So there is a good itemization supply in the game.


-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
Trefalgar User is Offline
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Elder


Total Posts: 4155
Location: Atlanta, GA

02/25/2008 10:32 AM  
I tried the Duel-Wield Combat + Shadowstep talent template.

My critical strikes in PvP went down a lot :-( My Hemo crits, which happen a lot, are now down in the 850 point range. They used to be 1150 or more. I can tell the difference in my burst damage. People are not dropping as fast, and that is critical for my survival in PvP. They need to drop fast before they can react or their buddies show up to help. I need them to drop fast so I can re-stealth and get away.

I only got to check my PVE dps for a short period on Nightbane. I was having bad connection problems. It looked like my PVE dps went up a good amount.

I'll continue testing a little more to see.

-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense
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