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The Resurrection Guild uses forums to coordinate our in-game activities and raids, and to build a sense of community that extends beyond grinding for experience and coin together. Communication about SLACK events can be found on the SLACK Forums Page.
To gain access to the Resurrection private forums, you must register with the guild's portal (the site you are currently browsing) and then post to the 'Guild Applications' forum below. Once you've been confirmed, you will be granted rights to access and post to the relevant forums. |
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Resurrection Guild Forums
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Obijay 
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/01/2007 5:41 PM |
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Since Malth here was my first toon, his spec started off quite interesting, and embarassing. I spent many MANY levels not bothering with poisons because "What's that piddly little damage going to do to help? Pfft waste of time and money." I was combat spec but my points were all over the board. I'd build up those combo points and hit Eviscerate, hoping I'd get a decent crit of it, more often then not being horribly disappointed with the end result. Eventually I got tired of this and went into a 41/18/2 Mutilate spec. It was 41/20, but when raiding with folks I'd go in to sap and often get discovered, so I threw a couple of bones to Master of Deception for some added stealth. Problem solved.
So I've got the spec down, and I notice I'm getting some good damage in. I discover shivving and mutilates topped off with an envenom finisher racked up some nice numbers. A full five deadly poison dots burned by a five combo envenom was hitting at minimum, 1100. Thinking I'm doing pretty good, I start running recap to check my average DPS. I'm hovering in the low to mid 300s on my own, raid buffage got me close to 400. Thought I was hot stuff, decided to check the Rogue forums.
Enter ego crush here, as I find rogues in similiar and even lesser gear can outdamage me by about 75-200 DPS. Now if it's combat swords or maces, I know I'm going to be outdone. But even fellow mutilate rogues were doing better. Baffled by this, I researched further and heard mostly the same things. I tested out there ideas, and instantly noticed the difference it made. I instantly went to about 380DPS on my own, and mid 400s to even 500 while raid buffed. Here are the tips I learned out of all my poking around.
1. "Most of your damage will not come from the big finisher crit, it's from your good old melee white hits."
I had a hard time believing this one until I checked out my indepth report in Recap. Sure enough, most of my damage, about 55%, regular old stabbings.
2. "Since white hits are your bread and butter, slice and dice should be your bread and butter combo burner."
With whites accounting for 55% of my own damage, I definately could see how a 30% speed increase is the way to go.
3. "Be like a lock and dot dot dot."
Poison dots, rupture, anything to get extra points of damage going in while you work. Why pass up free hurting?
After testing around with various things, I seem to get the most damage out of opening with a garrote, having wound poison on my main hand, deadly on my off hander. If the garrote applies wound poison, I hit Mutilate for a good 1000-1800 damage. If the poison isn't applied, I Shiv to get a Deadly Poison charge on there, then mutilate (Mut gets a 50% damage boost on a poisoned target). From there I begin alternating finishers between slice and dice, rupture, and kidney shot, using Mutilates to rebuild my combo points. Why kidney shot? I have three points in improved kidney shot, which ups all damage a mob takes by 9% while they are in the stun. In cases where a mob is immune to rupture, I sub in envenom between slice and dices. I'll still throw out cheapshot openers and what not, it's always going to be situational really. I just know personally I got tired of spamming sinister strike and eviscerate, getting the occasional KABOOM hit. Sure being mutilate is very position orientated, but there is about a 75° circle behind and to either side of a mob that still classifies as "behind". After playing like this for a 2 weeks, I respecced myself, dropping the three points from Improved Eviscerate once and for all. This play style isn't always as satisfying as seeing the 4 digit boom numbers off a super nice finisher. But knowing the sustained damage is up there and I'll still get some great crits off mutilate more than makes up for it. Plus if I want to see the big pretty numbers, I'll throw a full 5/5 envenom, getting anywhere from 1000-3500 damage off of it.
My goal isn't to be the top of the damage list, there are plenty of rogues out there like that. But I do enjoy doing the best I can, putting out as much as I can and feeling like a viable and effective member of a party or raid. I'm glad we don't run DPS minimums or force people to play a certain way, that's one of my favorite things about Resurrection. I just wanted to share all this stuff I managed to pick up and learn over the past few weeks. Hopefully it'll be at least interesting for my fellow sneaky pickpockets and ruffians. This stuff should work for both combat and assassin rogues, and I think subtlety, although I've never played as one so I can't be positive. I bet a bunch of you guys already knew all this stuff and can now just take this opportunity to go "You noob >:D"
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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Oryx
AFK
Guild Member
Total Posts: 501
Location: Denver
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| 11/01/2007 6:46 PM |
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| Rock on, Mister Roguey Rogue. Slice n Dice ftw. |
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Aquatic 70 Shaman ~ Haelo 60 Paladin
Tichelle 58 Warrior ~ Khaarma 41 Druid
Decode 55 Death Knight
The AFK Queen. |
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seeker
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Total Posts: 3236
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....
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| 11/01/2007 8:00 PM |
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/nods
and if your talent spec will allow you to go 3/3 in improved slice n dice: DO IT.
the 1st combo point used for slice n dice is 9 seconds. every additional one is only 3 seconds more.
However, 3/3 = +45% to your duration (you don't have to re-do it as often). This multiplier does some cool things.
1 combo point? 13 seconds (your 3 talent points bought you 4 seconds)
2 combo points? 17 seconds (your 3 talent points bought you 1 second more than the +3 per combo)
3 combo points? 22 seconds (your 3 talent points bought you 2 second more than the +3 per combo)
4 combo points? 26 seconds (your 3 talent points bought you 1 second more than the +3 per combo)
5 combo points? 30 seconds (your 3 talent points bought you 1 second more than the +3 per combo)
Now, there are two ways to look at this. One is that a 5-pt combo gave you +9 duration -- which is pretty durn nice.
Another look points out that the 1-point is the best bang-for-buck, with 3 combo another good one -- and lasting a touch longer than a 5-point would if you didn't have the skill.
Personally, when Chibi comes out, I find that I have to make a call: do I go for a 5-pt evis (wimpy caster mob!) or use my 1st combo point for slice n dice (not a caster) and rebuild my points after that? Deciding keeps it interesting :D |
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Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53 |
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Kemel
Guild Leader
Total Posts: 1530
Location: Michigan
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| 11/02/2007 1:45 AM |
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| Good tips. Nice to see some conversation going on and getting folks thinking. |
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Kemel - lv 70 Paladin - Jewelcrafter
Clearwood - lv 70 Druid - Alchemist
Niev - lv 70 Warlock - Enchanter/Tailor
Sundown - lv 70 Rogue
Moo! |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/02/2007 7:29 AM |
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My General Dungeon Attack Sequence:
*Garrote
*Shiv
*Slice N Dice (immediately with whatever combo points I have)
*Shiv to stack up poisons
*Rupture at 5 combo points
*Sinister Strikes (or Mutilate if you have it)
*Keep SnD and Rupture going as needed
*Eviscerate with extra combo points or if mob is almost dead anyway.
Totally agree on the white damage!
Essential Combat Talents even if you don't go deep into the tree. It takes 20 points to get 5/5 Duel Wield:
3/3 Slice N Dice (30% more white damage)
5/5 Precision (effective +Hit Rating vs higher level dungeon mobs)
5/5 Duel Wield (+50% offhand damage is HUGE boost to white damage)
About Envenom -- The nice thing is it bypasses armor. The down side is that it uses up your deadly poison stacks. For that reason, the rogue theorycrafters say that other finishers are better (even Eviscerate) unless the mob is almost dead and you just want to blow the combo points and poisons for a final burst to up your damage meter readings. Otherwise, you are better off letting the deadly poison keep ticking to it's full damage potential and doing some other finisher. I tend to agree.
Some rogues like Envenom in PvP verses warriors, paladins and bear druids because it bypasses all their armor. Vile Poisons is a must IMO if you want to Envenom. |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/02/2007 7:35 AM |
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Oh yeah, one other thing about openers in dungeons.
Garrote > Cheap Shot for a couple reasons I think. Cheap Shot gives you 1 more combo point, BUT stunning the mob often can mess up the pull or what the tank is trying to do to organize things.
Also, it's a great pulling assist for caster mobs. On multi-mob pulls with mixed enemies (melee and casters) it's harder for the tank to get them all to the right spot. The silence effect on Garrote usually makes the caster mob run right for the tank and NOT stand there in place blasting them with spells. Since it is a DOT, it also doesn't tend to aggro you as fast.
I try to watch for that and help bring the pull to the kill zone (usually away from their other buddies in the room). |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Obijay
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/02/2007 12:44 PM |
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*/Woot conversation.
Yeah I like envenom because it ignores the armor of your target, but for the most part it's reserved for a "Oh just die already!" move. I couldn't get the full five into dual wield, sacrificing 2 points for Master of Deception due to my occasional clumsiness. I used to always cheapshot a mob, until I saw just how badly it can mess with a pull. I do bust it out for the Moroes fight in Kara for the Shadow and Healy priests, once they are clear of the shackles. Since they are squishy I end up "tanking" one, although by tanking I'm just stunlocking it as much as possible.
I see the point of using something other than envenom to save those poison ticks, and most of the time I'm reburning S&D off of 2-4 combo points to keep it going. I don't mind burning it though with an envenom, simply because the mutilate build allows you to get them back on there so darn quickly, especially if you have Deadly on both blades. |
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/02/2007 1:35 PM |
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I go back and forth about having deadly poison on both blades for PVE.
Like you said, you can get stacks up quick. On the other hand, once you have 5 deadly poisons on a target (which happens quick) additional poison procs do no additional damage.
I've been going Deadly on OH (Shiv) and Instant/Wound for MH. As a Mutilate rogue, Deadly/Wound is best to make sure your Mutilates get their full bonus from target being poisoned. I go Deadly/Instant with my maces.
On the subject of Mutilate and special attacks, Cold Blood + Mutilate > Cold Blood + Eviscerate. A lot of rogues are used to doing CB+Evis from the old days Pre-TBC. Assuming a Mutilate rogue has Cold Blood and Seal Fate (which they better have!) along with other talents in that tree, a crit Mutilate will do almost as much as a crit 5-point Eviscerate. The difference is CB+Mut *GIVES* you 3 combo points instead of CB+Evisc *COSTING* you 5 combo points.
Malthazar. You are a Night Elf aren't you? You already get +1 level of stealth as a racial. I'd recommend getting a stealth enchant and going full 5/5 duel wield for PVE damage if you really have a lot of problems with mobs seeing you. I know what you mean though. There's a noticeable difference not having any points in MoD. It's a huge difference in PvP for sure. |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Obijay
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/02/2007 2:52 PM |
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Yeah, I very rarely double up on deadly since you lose procs in the long run. I think the only time I ever do is when I dig into the bags and go "oh bugger, all I have left is deadly :S". It's been a looong time since I did a CB+Evis. Until I really got the hang of slice and dice and mut to rebuild my points, it was CB and envenom, but once I saw that a cold blood poison fueled mutilate easily matched one of my finisher crits and gave me 3 points (but of course I have Seal Fate), I never looked back.
With Malth being my PVE and PVP toon, I tried to find a happy medium between builds. I think the 41/18/2 works pretty will. I do sacrifice that 20% extra damage, but that lil bit of extra sneakiness comes in real handy in arena and BGs |
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/02/2007 4:30 PM |
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| I <3 sneakiness. hehe |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Pink
Guild Member
Total Posts: 79
Location: Ponchatoula, Louisiana
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| 11/08/2007 4:51 PM |
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Malth, is this the thread you wanted me to comment in?
I have to admit, from just a cursory glance at the posts, yall have me *significantly* outrogued. ;-) Many of the talents/abilities that are mentioned, I don't even use (mainly out of fear that they're just "candy" abilities that serve to detract from mainline dps)...hoping I'm wrong on that though.
However, in spite of playing one for what's nearing 3 years now, there's still much about the class that I don't know. I'm going to study this thread in-depth and see if I can arrive at a common consensus as to what works best. I'm thinking a respec will be in order for me in the near future. |
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seeker
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Total Posts: 3236
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....
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| 11/08/2007 6:40 PM |
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Pink, I ran /combatstats on last night's Kara run for the 1st time ever. I'm going to leave overall dps/damage done aside because there are too many gear differences, but there are actually some helpful #s in it for pointing out some things relating to this conversation....
dawlin's melee swings:
56% of dawlin's DPS (24.2% miss, 33% crit, 21% glancing: 1328 hits w/ a 1.8 spd mainhand/1.4 spd offhand)
0 slice n dices
malthazar's melee swings:
53% of malthazar's DPS (21.1% miss, 30% crit, 20% glancing: 1616 hits w/ a 1.8 spd mainhand/1.4 spd offhand)
91 slice n dices
========================
You both have the same weaponspeed so i can ignore that for this math (yay!), but assuming you were both alive and swinging the exact same length of time (yeah, yeah -- quite unlikely -- mal died once more and there's always other details):
1) Both rogues did over 50% of their total damage for the entire run in "white" damage: white damage is king!
2) Mal took 121.69% of the swings that Dawlin did (and at least some % of those is going to be because of the +91 slice n dices).
====================================
Something to remember: you're totally different specs. Mal's heavy assassination, Tref's heavy combat, and you're heaviest in combat, but still only 33 in. There are two keys to think about when you contemplate a respec.
#1: PvP, PvE (raider), or PvE (5-man) -- where's your focus? This has a huge impact on where you should focus talent points.
#2: play-style -- do you love to backstab away? Do you love sinister strike? How much do you use sap? These things will also help shape how you should spec. |
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Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53 |
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Karosa
Guild Member
Total Posts: 219
Location: Louisville, KY
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| 11/10/2007 12:01 AM |
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| I dunno about things...I switched from Combat (Sword Spec) to Dagger Mutilate and...seem to hate it. I simply cannot keep behind the enemy enough and don't know where to begin about getting better at it. I checked at 70 and know that I can easily get 2 good epic daggers from rep rewards, but gawd is it gonna be frustrating along the way. I don't see how you all do it. I'm also trying to figure out how to keep Riposte while getting Imp Slice N Dice. |
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When in doubt...hit something as hard as possible.
Shut up and Reboot. |
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seeker
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Total Posts: 3236
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....
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| 11/10/2007 10:09 AM |
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How long have you been at it?
Whenever you change specs, you need to give it some time to work out the kinks.
If you've given it some decent time and still really don't care for it -- that spec isn't for you :D |
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Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53 |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/12/2007 11:32 AM |
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From my experience, Mutilate without Dual Wield in the Combat Tree lacks the sustained DPS (and some of the burst too). The bonus to offhand damage boost your Mutilates as well as taking more advantage of Slice N Dice.
Combat specs lack the combo point generation. To help that, you need to go deep enough to put some points into Combat Potency (generates energy on 20% of your offhand swings). That way you can do Sinister Strikes and Shiv's more often to generate the combos. Ideally, put 40 points in combat to get 5/5 Combat Potency. Then you can go 21 deep in Subtlety to get Preparation for PvP, or go 21 points deep into Assassination to get Cold Blood and pump up your damage output.
Shadowstep (deep Subtlety) just doesn't cut it in PVE dungeons or PvP. That's been my experience. It's a TON of fun. It has lots of survival and utility, but there's not enough there after the initial suprise burst. It will be a little better after Patch 2.3, but I don't think it will change it enough. |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Obijay
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/12/2007 5:35 PM |
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| Yeah Mutilate doesn't really start to shine until you have the points in dual wielding. Even without a full 5 in it, it's a noticeable difference. As for having a tough time getting behind the mob, it's darn near impossible if you solo. Basically you'll have to get some quick combo points to pull off a kidney shot. I think it takes at least a four pointer to leave them stunned long enough for you to get behind them and have the necessary 60 energy to pull off a mutilate, and then you'll only get one. In dungeons though, as long as you have a good tank, you are good to go. |
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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Obijay
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/12/2007 5:37 PM |
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Yes pinky this was the one. I had the same fear of some of the later skills being nothing but fluff and filler, but a lot of them do make a great difference in damage output. You're best bet is to check out what was said here of course, and then poke around the rogue forums on the main WoW site. You'll have to dig through some serious crud, but good nuggets of advice are hidden in there.
Like Nagrand cherries. |
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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Trefalgar
Pie Paragon
Council Member
Total Posts: 4160
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| 11/13/2007 8:01 PM |
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Don't forget Gouge for doing Mutilate strikes.
Cheap Shot (2 combo points)
Gouge (1 combo point, mob should be poisoned with something by this point)
Mutilate (2 combo points)
Eviscerate to finish them or Kidney Shot to get another mutilate or two.
Most mobs should be dead. Can't use Deadly Poison very good with Gouge though. Maybe Crippling/Wound? or do Instant MH/Wound OH for Shiv'ing. |
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-Special Agent Trefal, CHU (Counter Horde Unit), Rogue Ops
-Lord Marshall of Forum Nonsense |
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Obijay
Advocate with the Iron Cat Paw
Guild Officer
Total Posts: 431
Location: Lacey, WA
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| 11/14/2007 10:46 AM |
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D'oh! I tend to forget about gouge in the rotation, that would be perfect for slipping around to nail a mob in the back.
Also, I pull a total noob maneuver. After my last respec, shortly before I made this thread, I forgot to add ranks to my mutilate *hangs head*. I went from rank 1 to rank 4 last night, and proceeded to pull aggro repeatedly off Wayanoru on a couple of heroic runs :D. Seeing non CB Mutilate hit for 1800 on average was very fun. |
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Marethen - 41 Frost Mage (Enchant 300 //Tailor 269)
Cearwyn - 33 Paladin (Engineer 172 //Mining 119) |
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seeker
Swords are fun!
Council Member
Total Posts: 3236
Location: Indy, no NV, no Indy, no NV....
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| 11/14/2007 4:22 PM |
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| Yay! Another agro-magnet -- i'm no longer alone! :D |
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Sabre (70 warrior)
Sceptre (70 warlock)
Thornkiss (70 priest)
Chibi (62 rogue)
and a slew of others, 9 - 53 |
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